2. Copying does not deprive anyone of the use of the original, therefore it is problematic to equate it with stealing.

3. Copyrights and patents are legal devices that enable authors to profit from their work, and thereby encourage them to create new works that _hopefully_ enriches society. The ethical and objections to infringing copyright is far weaker than what the article suggests.

God Bless You!

Best wishes
Jonas

Being a christian, you know that evil exists and it’s quite clear that you think file sharing is evil and immoral, but lets put it in perspective here. What is that compared to the love of money of these multi billion dollar companies many of which are still turning a profit, despite file sharing and “piracy”, who you yourself have pointed out would go so far as to litigate against a 12 year old girl for unjustfied amounts in compensation. Do you think THAT is morally right? Do you not think thats taking it abit too far? If that action is not at least in part motivated by greed and the love of money which according to your doctrine is THE ROOT OF ALL KINDS OF EVIL, Then what is? As a christian, you obviously realise that evil exists in this world, and thats not going to change, so the least you can do, IF you are gonna take sides, is to side with the “lesser” evil.

However, I would also challenge your argument that “NON PROFIT” piracy or file sharing is “stealing” and that the ramifactions are the same. Moreover, I would argue that such file sharing and media distribution whereby monetary profits are not gained by the consumers doing the sharing exists to offset this corporate greed.

But HOW can it be stealing when the owner/creator of the product still has possession of the product and still has control over what he wants to do with that product?

You then weaken your argument by stating ” You might argue that copying a digital file isn’t really stealing, since the original file hasn’t been moved at all, but you are denying the creator of that digital work the right they have to make a profit on that work. ”

But are ALL profits DESERVED? By stating the above, You are implicitly conceding that piracy is NOT stealing and are in effect arguing for greed and in fact encouraging it! File sharing may very well deny the owner of the work additional potential profits, but your argument paints a picture that they are complete victims when in reality, these artists or owners of their creative work are more than likely already multi millionaires! File sharing also generates a publicity for artists that they otherwise might not get, which can in turn indirectly generate more sales for the artist, and though you have focused on the negative effects of file sharing on an artist, this is one POSITIVE effect that should not be over looked or understated.

Furthermore, I put to you that many christians who engage in file sharing do so with generosity in their heart with no INTENTION of profiting from their actions! Their actions also serve the purpose of offsetting undeserved profits, greed and thereby ” the love of money ” which according to the bible is ” The root of all kinds of evil! ”

In many affluent developed countries, piracy and file sharing is considered illegal, but since when has legality and morality been the same thing? Case in point, Some countries have legalised same sex marriages, but I doubt you consider that legalisation moral from a christian perspective.

So are all forms of piracy immoral, despite being illegal in most countries? The answer is an emphatic NO.

Thank you for reading and appreciating another point of view

Peace.

I liked the part where the article said “If you aren’t content with the music, movies, and software the Lord has blessed you with, you need to pray and examine yourself for the reason why.” I wonder how i can go about doing this.

It is amazing all the controversy this has create, eve among Christians. People simply don’t like being told they can steal music.

In the 20th chapter of Luke, verses 19-26, Jesus laid it out for us about how to approach the laws of this world. Further, Paul, writing to the church in Rome (Romans 13:1-6), tells us to obey our earthly authorities as established by God (the ultimate authority). That’s God’s spin on the deal.

When the blind lead the blind they both fall into the ditch.

There are many struggles as a Christian this day in age indeed we are left with the holy spirit to help interpret and guide us. But nonetheless, I respectfully take issue with some assumptions and if I may.. rather high brow.. tone the author takes.. We are not to “grey” gods laws but neither are we to declare to know how gods law applies to MAN’s law in every case. And that’s where you are in error. Corporate law, mans law, even country law are not one the same with God’s as you would imply. Give Caesar his due to but to say to break Country law is breaking God’s law is an untrue and un scriptural statement. Was it gods law then to suffer Black’s during United States slavery or Gods law to break business plantation law by Giving Blacks a wage?.. More the same Corporate Law is not one the same as God’s law. FYI, “Piracy” and “theft” are in fact terms born out of the coporations and courts themselves They are the ones that first used and promoted those terms just as I would call someone a Racist for wanting to say secure our countrie’s borders. They are words used for effect to make their own definition. Just because I or company use a word makes it so. For all works belong to god ultimately and to claim ownership over a recipe, a depiction, a copy of an idea is not God’s law. I would be with you on the argument of defrauding and profiting off others works but you walk a fine line in arguing “piracy” or just the act of possessing a copy of another’s creation is against God’s law.. and I think you step over that line.
Brother, worry more about getting right with GOD then “getting others right”.. as this is what Jesus taught.. for “is not thine own house unclean wherefore thou proclaim another unclean, surely it is better the servant to be the caretaker of ones own house then it is to suffer thy neighbor’s bed”
Peace..

“But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come. For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money, boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy, unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good, treacherous, reckless, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these.” 2 Timothy 3:1-5

People who are “lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God”, are the ones who are listening to, watching or playing with secular music, movies or games.

“Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.” 1 John 2:15

Christians are not to love the world.

If you are pirating this stuff you should *first* be questioning whether you should even be having that stuff. If on the other hand you are pirating Christian music, movies or games, then don’t you know that you are taking from Jesus, for

“He [Jesus] will answer them, `Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ ” Matthew 25:45

so to take what belongs to a Christian is to take from Jesus Christ Himself. If you think that the Christians who created those music, movies or games do not deserve to be paid then might I remind you that -

“For the Scripture says, ‘YOU SHALL NOT MUZZLE THE OX WHILE HE IS THRESHING,’ and ‘The laborer is worthy of his wages.’ ” 1 Timothy 5:18

That is their job, they deserve the money they earn from it. And people do not have a moral “right” to take that away.

Someone who pirates something that they do not think is worth buying should instead - go without. There is no “instrinsic right” for a person to have that music, movie or game.

I agree with this guy that we must make sure our own house is clean. However the scriptures clearly teach that we are to encourage one another [fellow Christians] to do what is right etc.

God says, “Be holy because I am holy.”

God Bless.

God Bless

I’m sorry, I can’t take this seriously.

If I’m not hearing that little voice, does that mean that doG has abandoned me? Or that I’m using excuses to cover up his voice? Maybe he should try harder.

You ever find it funny that only believers can hear his voice? The funny part to me is the one where fundamentalist christian children are in my friend’s office, complaining about voices telling them to do things.

It’s something my doctor friend likes to call ‘Schizophrenia’.

He’s never met more screwed up kids than those who come from a fundamentalist parent.

If you spend your life expecting to hear voices from doG, eventually, you will hear voices. Voices that your mind has fabricated. You want to impress doG with your loyalty, don’t you? Imagine the confusion you might feel if you thought doG was in your head, telling you to do nonsensical things. ‘Pour the orange juice’ and ‘Cross the street’.

I’ve heard many professed Christians say the old line ‘God must be willing me to go somewhere else.’ after being fired. It’s like you’re covering up failure with faith!

Think twice before you skip to direct insults and threats of hell. Remember, the lord works in mysterious ways.

And Raza, we’re all blind. Perhaps two blind people are better than one.

“When the blind lead the blind they both fall into the ditch.”

The fact is, there are many verses in the bible that are contradictory and inconsistent and do not stand the test of logic/reason and any christian with some semblance of intellectual honesty will recognise and acknowledge
that.

Even now, we see the various christians who have made comments, each pulling verses from the moral grab bag that is the bible to justify his own stance. But the bottom line is this, To label all forms of “piracy” immoral is blatently incorrect for the reasons I have given in my previous posts. And To those who claim that ” piracy is stealing “, please explain HOW it can be stealing when the owner/creator of the product still has possession of the product and still has control over what he wants to do with that product?

The fact of the matter is that piracy is really the act of copying and no where does it say in the bible that copying is a sin. The bible does not have specific answers to everything and even christians need to occasionally apply the tool of reason, and through reason we can conclude that it is immoral to engage in ” the root of all kinds of evil ” (ie the love of money) by making copies and making monetary profits from someone else’s work.

I would also like to at this point demonstrate that the bible is not infallible by using a verse that RAZA quotes.

“Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.” 1 John 2:15

How many of you christians here are living examples that this verse CANNOT be true? Any christian who is a music lover and who has downloaded or shared a song over the internet with the best of intentions with genrosity in your heart, how many of you can put up your hands and say that you DON’T love God because you also love music, a “thing” of this world?

On top of that, in John 3:16, it states ” For God so LOVED THE WORLD , that He gave His only begotten Son…. ” So on one hand, God CAN love the world and yet we as human beings supposedly made in the image of god are NOT supposed to love the world and things that comprise this world? Why the double standard? This is but one example. There are double standards galore in the bible for what is acceptable for God and what is acceptable for humans, and yet many christians would claim that an
” ABSOLUTE ” Standard of morality exists. This is one of the biggest contradictions that exists in the bible!

And Munkybran, I have known RAZA as a friend for many years now and though he will probably deny it vigorously, he is more blind than he realises.

To all christians who read this, do not blindly follow the opinion of RAZA, or dogmatic verses in the bible that cannot hold up under logical scrutiny. Think and consider everything that has been said, see which points of view are the most rationally sound and then judge for yourself.

I am curious, what do you think John is referring to when he says “the world” in 1 John? What do you think he’s referring to as “the world” in the gospel of John? Do they mean the same thing to you? You speak so highly of logic, and yet it seems that you use it improperly. If you’d like, maybe I should compose an article on the logical nature of Christianity and we could move this discussion to there.

Thanks for your comments. I am posting here mainly because my Christian friend RAZA referred me to this site and upon reading Jeremy Smith’s article, I wanted to give Christians a different perspective by presenting what I feel is a valid argument, and to encourage discussion about the issue. Secondly, I did it because I’m quite tired of the flawed
” All piracy is stealing ” argument that seems to be the popular and
pre-dominant belief among christians, especially fundamentalists. Since I have posted here, You may have noticed that the comments section has come alive. Prior to my presence here, The comments section was virtually dead. To THAT end, I have succeeded with one of my initial goals.

In relation to me holding the belief that the bible is not infallible, Are you aware that there are many good Christians who love God, yet ALSO do not hold the belief that the bible is the infallible word of god? Just so that there is no misunderstanding between us, I am NOT an atheist who lacks belief in God, I am a freethinker whose opinions on God and religion are not based on tradition or rationally unjustified dogma

You claim that I have no voice in this discussion simply because I am not a christian. I’m sorry, but I wasn’t aware that this site was meant only for christians to express their views. Moreover my “voice” in this discussion is based on the validity and the strength of the arguments I present, not my religious persuasion. However, if my comments are not welcome, I will gladly stop posting here. I have said what I wanted to say and anything that I post from here on out would be in response to criticisms and comments directed at what I have expressed on this forum so far.

I had an inclination that the verse I quoted from John as a counter argument wouldn’t sit too well with many christians, and I concede that it’s probably not the best example. And more than likely, you will tell me that I should take things in context. Sure, but in my experience, ” Crying context ” has become the battle cry and the knee jerk reaction of many Christian apologists. I’ll gladly point out many other contradictions and logical inconsistencies the bible contains if you are open to further discussion.

In closing, I’ll be more than happy to read any article you compose about the logicical nature of christianity and continue the discussion with you there. And , if you or any other christian believes that my arguments posted thus far do NOT have a biblical basis or that they are not logical, I welcome and encourage you or anyone else to convincingly falsify them.

Till then, from one human being to another, Take care….

Feel free to take a look.

http://www.michaelgeist.ca/content/view/2347/125/

As to the current discussion and the validity of your argument, I don’t really feel that I need to respond to any of your accusations as Jeremy already answered them in his original post. Your other comments, such as the authority of US Laws, the infallibility of Scripture, etc are not relevant to the immediate topic of this post, although we do have articles on such things if you would like to discuss them.

You’re more than welcome to continue posting on deeper devotion.

My take on it is that if you are downloading something that just came out, that it is definitely wrong! The artist is definitely losing money in that case. It’s the same for movies as well. The kind of people who continually do this are the kind of people who don’t even buy CDs or DVDs and I find that wrong cause they think they can get anything for free. But I think that if you download something that is so rare, that you can’t get it, like an album released from the ’80s that had maybe only 5000 copies available, then I have a different take on that. But in general I don’t fully see it as stealing because you don’t actually have an authentic copy of the thing, you just have a downgraded version of it. And I think of how John The Baptist said share what you have with those less fortunate. But then you could argue if these people are really less fortunate. I still download, but they are usually rare stuff that is impossible to get a hold of unless you’ve got some connections, such as albums that were released in the ’80s only on vinyl and hard to get a hold of. The only guys making money from that are the people who are ripping the vinyls to CD anyway. Also, I download things you can’t even buy anyway, like classic TV Shows that don’t have any DVD release. I don’t know how that is wrong when you can’t even get a hold of it another way. And if I see some show I watched on TV that I wish I could tape but couldn’t, cause my vid player is broke, then I feel I can download it, because I did have the right to see it. If this is wrong, then why do they sell VCRs for legally? But I have to admit that because of things I’ve downloaded, I’ve discovered new artists and have gone out to buy their CDs. And these CDs can’t even be bought here most the time, as most of what I like I have to import. I do buy CDs and DVDs, always looking through the bargains. You’ll be surprised how many CDs and DVDs brand new are cheap to get these days. I guess it could be because of pirating that sales go down. My stance is that the downloading new stuff is definitely wrong because artists are relying on the sales of those albums. And if you don’t buy CDs or DVDs because you rely on downloads, then there seems to be something wrong there. If you download music, I say go out and buy something from that artist if you really care.

J