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	<title>Comments on: Welcome to Church, Can I Take Your Order?</title>
	<link>http://deeperdevotion.com/articles/308</link>
	<description>Delivered Monday through Friday, our daily devotions are the perfect companion to your time in the Word. Biblical, consistent, and with over three years of back content, DEEPERDEVOTION.com is a great resource for everyone. Check us out on the web at www.deeperdevotion.com</description>
	<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 01:29:23 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: papacarchy</title>
		<link>http://deeperdevotion.com/articles/308#comment-995</link>
		<author>papacarchy</author>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Sep 2003 19:05:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://deeperdevotion.com/articles/308#comment-995</guid>
					<description>Excellent insights - But I suspect your analysis doesn&#039;t go quite far enough.

There is a good bit of statistical evidence to suggest that as many as 8 out of 10 American &#34;self-identified&#34; evangelicals do not tithe. While there may be a variety of views regarding the issue of tithing, it seems to me that this figure is far more revealing that we here in the States are willing to admit.

There is a reason why Jesus said that it is not possible to serve God and money. I believe it is because money more than any other thing offers the most enslaving substitute for God. It seduces with its offer of security, power and opporunity. It enslaves with what it demands in return for what it pretends to offer. And I think that the statistics on giving reflect the sad reality that many Christians have bought the promise money offers. 

Jesus said in the parable of the shrewd steward that if one cannot be trusted to handle earthly wealth how can they ever be trusted to handle true wealth. Could that explain the lack of real power in the Western Church. Why are so many of the catagories of social distress reflected at almost the same rate in the church as in the secular culture? Is is possible that we have chosen to serve money, and the outcome is impotency. Why are so few converted? Is it possible that the dirty little secret in the American church is that for all our lamenting about the big old secular culture bogeyman that the real problem is the lack of sacrificial faith and obedience routinuely identified by Jesus and the apostles as the ordinary outcome of coming to faith in Christ.

For me the most glaring evidence for this is the pathetic way in which Christians give. The works of the kingdom - care for the poor, needy and the most marginalized require a response that demands sacrifice on the part of those who are blessed with so much. Jesus said the fields were white for harvest, but the workers were few. He could have added - you have to be willing to go where those fields are white. The co-opting of the American Evangelical church by the mentality of consumers looking for the best religious goods and services are only the most obvious symptom of a far more sobering reality - we have become so sated by the affluence that faith plays almost no real role in our day to day life in God. Nothing pinches - so nothing with regards to the purposes of God seem that urgent. This I fear is a luxury only the wealthy (which by world standards is virtually everyone in the US), can afford.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excellent insights - But I suspect your analysis doesn&#039;t go quite far enough.</p>
<p>There is a good bit of statistical evidence to suggest that as many as 8 out of 10 American &quot;self-identified&quot; evangelicals do not tithe. While there may be a variety of views regarding the issue of tithing, it seems to me that this figure is far more revealing that we here in the States are willing to admit.</p>
<p>There is a reason why Jesus said that it is not possible to serve God and money. I believe it is because money more than any other thing offers the most enslaving substitute for God. It seduces with its offer of security, power and opporunity. It enslaves with what it demands in return for what it pretends to offer. And I think that the statistics on giving reflect the sad reality that many Christians have bought the promise money offers. </p>
<p>Jesus said in the parable of the shrewd steward that if one cannot be trusted to handle earthly wealth how can they ever be trusted to handle true wealth. Could that explain the lack of real power in the Western Church. Why are so many of the catagories of social distress reflected at almost the same rate in the church as in the secular culture? Is is possible that we have chosen to serve money, and the outcome is impotency. Why are so few converted? Is it possible that the dirty little secret in the American church is that for all our lamenting about the big old secular culture bogeyman that the real problem is the lack of sacrificial faith and obedience routinuely identified by Jesus and the apostles as the ordinary outcome of coming to faith in Christ.</p>
<p>For me the most glaring evidence for this is the pathetic way in which Christians give. The works of the kingdom - care for the poor, needy and the most marginalized require a response that demands sacrifice on the part of those who are blessed with so much. Jesus said the fields were white for harvest, but the workers were few. He could have added - you have to be willing to go where those fields are white. The co-opting of the American Evangelical church by the mentality of consumers looking for the best religious goods and services are only the most obvious symptom of a far more sobering reality - we have become so sated by the affluence that faith plays almost no real role in our day to day life in God. Nothing pinches - so nothing with regards to the purposes of God seem that urgent. This I fear is a luxury only the wealthy (which by world standards is virtually everyone in the US), can afford.</p>
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		<title>By: jeremy</title>
		<link>http://deeperdevotion.com/articles/308#comment-996</link>
		<author>jeremy</author>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Sep 2003 08:06:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://deeperdevotion.com/articles/308#comment-996</guid>
					<description>papacarchy, i think you&#039;ve hit the nail right on the head!  we try to maintain this dichotomy between the self-sacrifice of following Christ and the self-actualization (self-centeredness) of western culture.  and this hypocrisy shows up perfectly in our giving--we can&#039;t put our money where our mouth is.  we honor God with our lips, but our hearts are far from him.  if our hearts were close, our money, gifts, and time would be his to use.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>papacarchy, i think you&#039;ve hit the nail right on the head!  we try to maintain this dichotomy between the self-sacrifice of following Christ and the self-actualization (self-centeredness) of western culture.  and this hypocrisy shows up perfectly in our giving&#8211;we can&#039;t put our money where our mouth is.  we honor God with our lips, but our hearts are far from him.  if our hearts were close, our money, gifts, and time would be his to use.</p>
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		<title>By: papacarchy</title>
		<link>http://deeperdevotion.com/articles/308#comment-997</link>
		<author>papacarchy</author>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Sep 2003 19:03:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://deeperdevotion.com/articles/308#comment-997</guid>
					<description>Jeremy - 
Its pretty disconcerting as well that so few in US seem to be aware of how deep and pervasive this problem is. It makes me think &#34;I wonder if the Laodician church had a clue they were in trouble?&#34; When the bar gets so low that discipleship is pretty much a precept rather than anything seriously considered - does God just shrug and say -- &#34;If they won&#039;t go work among the poor I will.&#34; Hence the great movement of God&#039;s Spirit among the developing world&#039;s people - South America, Africa, Asia.

When one lives in a culture as materialistic and obsessed with consuming as ours and she sends her seducing siren song over ever possible imput medium conceiveable - is it possible that most of the church here doesn&#039;t know it -- because no one looks any different than anyone else. Its hard to know you are screwed up if being screwed up is the norm and being a disciple is so anomolous that the numbers are just too tiny to make a difference -- at least for the moment. Actually - in spite of the pessimistic tone of this post -- I actually have great hope for the church, and its impact in the world. Mostly this comes from time spent in Brazil, and close connections to what God is doing is Africa. I witnessed ordinary Christians in great numbers who regarded sacrifice and faith that really stretched them as normal Christian life. That is a sign of great hope. I am somewhat pessimistic about the US - but I am here plugging away within my own Christian Community. We are presently moving our congregation into an urban community, preparing to do some pretty risky stuff - for which I am greatly thankful. I am also certain there are pockets of faithful radicals out there who long for the same kind of faithful witness to be the norm for the church rather than the exception. Peace</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeremy -<br />
Its pretty disconcerting as well that so few in US seem to be aware of how deep and pervasive this problem is. It makes me think &quot;I wonder if the Laodician church had a clue they were in trouble?&quot; When the bar gets so low that discipleship is pretty much a precept rather than anything seriously considered - does God just shrug and say &#8212; &quot;If they won&#039;t go work among the poor I will.&quot; Hence the great movement of God&#039;s Spirit among the developing world&#039;s people - South America, Africa, Asia.</p>
<p>When one lives in a culture as materialistic and obsessed with consuming as ours and she sends her seducing siren song over ever possible imput medium conceiveable - is it possible that most of the church here doesn&#039;t know it &#8212; because no one looks any different than anyone else. Its hard to know you are screwed up if being screwed up is the norm and being a disciple is so anomolous that the numbers are just too tiny to make a difference &#8212; at least for the moment. Actually - in spite of the pessimistic tone of this post &#8212; I actually have great hope for the church, and its impact in the world. Mostly this comes from time spent in Brazil, and close connections to what God is doing is Africa. I witnessed ordinary Christians in great numbers who regarded sacrifice and faith that really stretched them as normal Christian life. That is a sign of great hope. I am somewhat pessimistic about the US - but I am here plugging away within my own Christian Community. We are presently moving our congregation into an urban community, preparing to do some pretty risky stuff - for which I am greatly thankful. I am also certain there are pockets of faithful radicals out there who long for the same kind of faithful witness to be the norm for the church rather than the exception. Peace</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://deeperdevotion.com/articles/308#comment-998</link>
		<author>Anonymous</author>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 May 2004 20:53:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://deeperdevotion.com/articles/308#comment-998</guid>
					<description>That is true. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That is true.</p>
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		<title>By: Anonymous</title>
		<link>http://deeperdevotion.com/articles/308#comment-999</link>
		<author>Anonymous</author>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 May 2004 17:09:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://deeperdevotion.com/articles/308#comment-999</guid>
					<description>your gay&lt;br /&gt;

</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>your gay</p>
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		<title>By: HickGirl</title>
		<link>http://deeperdevotion.com/articles/308#comment-1000</link>
		<author>HickGirl</author>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Jul 2004 19:44:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://deeperdevotion.com/articles/308#comment-1000</guid>
					<description>I agree with you.  We are such a materialistic and consumer society.  It is sad to think that we continue this attitude once we become Christians. &lt;br /&gt;
I do disagree with what you said after your first set of bullets.  I think that it is important to move onto a new church bible study if you are not growing there. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with you.  We are such a materialistic and consumer society.  It is sad to think that we continue this attitude once we become Christians. <br />
I do disagree with what you said after your first set of bullets.  I think that it is important to move onto a new church bible study if you are not growing there.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Virts</title>
		<link>http://deeperdevotion.com/articles/308#comment-1613</link>
		<author>Andrew Virts</author>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Jun 2007 16:11:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://deeperdevotion.com/articles/308#comment-1613</guid>
					<description>Hands down, this was probably my most favorite article to date. It had a lot of information that I could definitely relate to in my own life and showed me how I can work on it. Thanks!

Andrew</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hands down, this was probably my most favorite article to date. It had a lot of information that I could definitely relate to in my own life and showed me how I can work on it. Thanks!</p>
<p>Andrew</p>
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		<title>By: Curtis Sinclair</title>
		<link>http://deeperdevotion.com/articles/308#comment-1712</link>
		<author>Curtis Sinclair</author>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Jun 2007 17:33:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://deeperdevotion.com/articles/308#comment-1712</guid>
					<description>Whilst I may be slightly off-topic here, I must say that alot of the Christian based blogs/sites that I visit often place a large focus on what we, as the body of Christ, aren't doing or are doing wrong.

After years of being unquenchably materialistic, I now tithe and give offerings faithfully; and I know that this article and the subsequent comments may very well prick the heart of someone that does not, but it would be nice to, at least some of the time, shift the focus to what God is doing, rather than what 'we' are not.

God is marvellous, and it would be nice to share our experiences of His wonderful goodness with our fellow brethren across the globe, rather than analyse areas that others are falling down. We all fall down in one area or another.

May God bless you all.

Curtis (from London)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Whilst I may be slightly off-topic here, I must say that alot of the Christian based blogs/sites that I visit often place a large focus on what we, as the body of Christ, aren&#8217;t doing or are doing wrong.</p>
<p>After years of being unquenchably materialistic, I now tithe and give offerings faithfully; and I know that this article and the subsequent comments may very well prick the heart of someone that does not, but it would be nice to, at least some of the time, shift the focus to what God is doing, rather than what &#8216;we&#8217; are not.</p>
<p>God is marvellous, and it would be nice to share our experiences of His wonderful goodness with our fellow brethren across the globe, rather than analyse areas that others are falling down. We all fall down in one area or another.</p>
<p>May God bless you all.</p>
<p>Curtis (from London)</p>
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		<title>By: Miranda</title>
		<link>http://deeperdevotion.com/articles/308#comment-4553</link>
		<author>Miranda</author>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Nov 2007 12:16:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://deeperdevotion.com/articles/308#comment-4553</guid>
					<description>Hi,
I agree that Americans are overwhelming materialistic. But, there are some who are sacrificing to give what they can, even when they are praying that God would provide for their next month's bills. Our family is considered low-income in the world's eyes, but we have been so blessed!!!
We also give to a child via Compassion International, and we are amazed on a consistant basis as to how blessed these children are not in the eyes of most Americans, but when our little girl writes us, she thanks us for giving her money for food... Food that we as Americans would not think twice about buying. And, these kids praise God like you wouldn't believe!
So, prai6e and thank God today, and let yourself be consumed with Him and Him alone!!!

In Christ, Miranda</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi,<br />
I agree that Americans are overwhelming materialistic. But, there are some who are sacrificing to give what they can, even when they are praying that God would provide for their next month&#8217;s bills. Our family is considered low-income in the world&#8217;s eyes, but we have been so blessed!!!<br />
We also give to a child via Compassion International, and we are amazed on a consistant basis as to how blessed these children are not in the eyes of most Americans, but when our little girl writes us, she thanks us for giving her money for food&#8230; Food that we as Americans would not think twice about buying. And, these kids praise God like you wouldn&#8217;t believe!<br />
So, prai6e and thank God today, and let yourself be consumed with Him and Him alone!!!</p>
<p>In Christ, Miranda</p>
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		<title>By: Glenn Ansley</title>
		<link>http://deeperdevotion.com/articles/308#comment-4561</link>
		<author>Glenn Ansley</author>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Nov 2007 16:43:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://deeperdevotion.com/articles/308#comment-4561</guid>
					<description>Miranda,
Thanks for your comment and testimony. Kristie and I support a child through compassion international as well. It helps to keep us in the right frame of mind.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Miranda,<br />
Thanks for your comment and testimony. Kristie and I support a child through compassion international as well. It helps to keep us in the right frame of mind.</p>
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